IFC certification + How to Save to IFC file [C#/.NET]? (Pipelines - Sewage/Drainage/Water Supply etc).

Developers
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Dear IFC developers, dear buildingsmart and to whom it may concern.

I am a C# | .NET programmer for 3d | cad program for Pipelines (Sewage | Drainage | Water Supply) etc. We have own 3d | cad | graphics format, but out program cannot save to other file formats, and also cannot get information from filetypes which are not developed by us.
So, as there is growing demand for interoperability, and users of our program want to be able to save | export Pipelines etc to IFC (and probably to open it later in Civil3d) - I am asked to make export module - to save to IFC.
We 've got some data similar to databases | tables with variables and their content, and that is to be saved to IFC.
I started to learn what is IFC. So I found out that it is developed by buildingSMART (formerly the International Alliance for Interoperability, IAI). So I found your website, and started to make kind of research. We need to make a program | module | library in C# programming language, and it should be able to save our file format - to ifc (mostly and first of all, as beginning we want to be able to export pipelines to Civil3d).
I started to google for C# code for IFC, there are some libraries in NuGet in Visual Studio. And on your site of buildingsmart I found a list of over 400 programs to work with IFC. But first with them is that most of them seems to be closed-source. Even though IFC is said to be open itself, free inter-exchange format between different cad | 3d | vector graphics programs, still it looks like each program which works with IFC supports its features not as good as it is expected. I tried to make IFC files from some cad programs, and found out that generated IFC files are not clear, not intuitively understood. So, my efforts to write a little program to just save a simple pipe (like that in ArchiCad - I took its coordinates - ifcCartesianPoints and ifcPolyLoops) - to IFC is at present unsuccessful.

I faced a problem that there are so many different fields in IFC file. Even to generate simple empty file - something like “HelloIFC” (similar to “Hello, world” program in programming languages world) - came out to be uneasy task. It seems that cad | vector | 3d programs which generate IFC files are putting there some information which seems to be not critical for important core data like coordinates and lines. On other hand, some data for unclear reasons is enciphered | encoded in some way so that I cannot find out how it is at all saved into IFC. Maybe such 3d | vector programs are not even compatible fully with IFC to save even simple 2d-lines etc to IFC files.
So I am having a question about what is IFC-certification? Do we require to pass special IFC-certification program? Do we require some special certificate to be sure that our program is doing what is required by users…? So, what do I need to do to get IFC certificate? Should I learn, study on special IFC courses which are there inside buildingSMART? Do you have in buildingSMART any courses, any lessons - especially for programmers, to be able to develop software in any language (we need now just C#), and make it faster, and without head-aches struggling hard to find out what means what in those lines inside IFC?

I think that ideally there is expected to be some official tool from buildingSMART itself, open-source, written in c# or | and in other most popular programming languages, well-documented, and also with examples, compiled code, maybe some github - freely downloadable repository for everyone who wants to use this free IFC file format - to be able to make it as fast as possible.
But unfortunately, as I can see, even within those over 400 programs | tools | sites to which buildingSMART gives links to - there seems to be only very few tools with open-source code. And even if there are such tools, they seem to be not complete, not full, not possible to compile them and having other problems, making it hard or even impossible to use such repositories present on buildingSMART’s over 400 links list…

This is sad, and forced me to think to write to you.

So, in short, minimum demanded IFC features which we require most of all - is ability to generate some empty blank ifc-file (with those maybe around 100 or so lines with some settings etc), and then also to be able to write data - like Pipelines (Sewage | Drainage | Water Supply).
This is very strange that IFC file cannot be opened or viewed | imported into viewer | editor, if it doesn’t has those extra information. If minimum set of data is cartesian points and lines which connect these points together, then what is the need of all those other properties | variables in the ifc file? it seems like most of those other properties are not used much, but it is strange that they are required, demanded by some cad | 3d | vector programs. It is like adding some extra information to make more encrypted, encoded etc - to be protected against someone. But if this file format is free, then why use encoded parts of text in ifc file?

Please, kindly guide us to make first steps to be able to record, save, export to simplest ifc files with pipes. where to find any manuals for programmers to be able to do such ifc exporter | importer, reader | writer etc?
If we try to make | open big file with size of 1Megabyte or more - there are thousands of lines, and we probably need some tool which is already written in c# to make this exporting to ifc possible, at least export to IFC we need.

Maybe if such source code is not available for free - then we can offer to buy it. Just tell us what options we do have to buy source code in c# to export pipelines or maybe any other objects. We need some reliable tool to test | verify | check generated IFC files to be sure that they are properly created and I believe such checkers can be best done, made by buildingSMART itself… Is buildingSMART a group of companies who develop IFC, and at same time such companies are making commercial tools for vector | 3d | cad graphics, and is it thus so that for this very reason, even tools for this ifc format are not freely available (especially in open-source)?

We have to ask you, buildingSMART, to let us know if there are special parts of your website which are protected only for registered users, who are probably members of buildingSMART, and who thus can access special protected parts of site like documentation for programmers etc? Also, if we speak about IFC standard itself, I want to know what is IFC ISO document which is also sold (there is link on | from you site buildingSMART) on your site? is it different from the files which are at present freely available on your website even for anonymous users | guests?
We found some example to make a wall in IFC, but even link to file from this document - on buildingsmart tech site - is not opening - it says that such file don’t exist. Does it mean that it doesn’t exist only for those who are not registered? Or it is permanently removed? So we need something like this pdf for a wall, but for Pipelines (Sewage | Drainage | Water Supply) etc. And I have no idea how to begin with, from what to make even small file with a simplest smallest pipe, and be able to generate such IFC file properly, so it is opened well in any 3d | vector | graphics programs which is supporting ifc files…
Well, ideally we want to be able to export any other kinds of object to ifc - roads, wells, building etc. and to read them from ifc and to be used inside our “isolated” program which uses own file format.

For example, to make it simple, what is required to make our program 100% certified by buildingSMART but to be able only only to work well and perfectly best only with Pipelines (Sewage | Drainage | Water Supply) - for exporting | saving into IFC files only (not even reading IFCs, and not even working with any other objects in ifc)…?
Is it possible to pass some special “buildingSMART Pipelines Sewage | Drainage | Water Supply export to ifc (course | manual for c# programmer) certification”?
Such module to save from our program to ifc these pipelines is very much necessary and required by our users of program we make, so we are even ready to buy such modules | libraries | source code, certification | certificate | manual etc - whatever - to make it done.
So we need a program that in it we have one more option - to save also to IFC. to save info about our project etc (we need to know how to do it, at least manual from “first hands” - from you), save info about pipelines etc etc.
Please answer us, this email, and provide some best solution, or maybe possible solutions how to achieve this as fast as possible. Internet is huge, and there are so many sites which provide some information or even programs for IFC. But it takes so much time to check them all. Maybe of them are available only if bought, - no free or trial versions etc. so we don’t even know which one
pipelines to ifc exporter" to buy (c# source code) - we don’t know which is better, which has more features, more certified etc - more supporting all newest fields, newest IFC versions etc…

We need kind of description of ifc - especially for programmers in c#, and especially for pipelines, exporting. we need manual with details, examples, best - with available source code, compiled as well, maybe at least DLL-s, but so at least we are able to have full access to all fields, properties etc within ifc file, and not to “invent wheel” making own tool (also not having documentation it seems" mission impossible" right now - trying to guess “blindly” by empirical method of “scientific experiments” - “let’s try in analogical way - maybe it will work and our generated file will be opened without problems”)…

so taking all these into account we kindly ask you to provide us, give us guidelines, hint, answers what to do in such situation and which step are to be performed to achieve this required functionality. - at least to save | export Pipelines (Sewage | Drainage | Water Supply) to ifc in C#.

Ideally I’ld also be happy to get some “minimal ifc file” - having minimum extra fields (which seem to be optional) - so we concentrate on important data within file, and not waste efforts, time, health etc, other resources - on researching the meaning of some optional fields which seem to be a lot of them in ifc file format specification.
it is very bad then when such I’ld say optional information is not added into ifc - it is unable to be opened.
There are so many extra fields which seemed to be just empty, not filled, and it also takes too much useless time, waste of time to research each of them, everyone of them - but in the end to come to the point that they are optional and not “a must” to be included in our save-to-ifc program. Please give us guidelines to make just minimal files first. Having hundreds of lines in ifc file is a bit scary, having thousands of lines in ifc file with some simple 3d object - is tiresome to read it all manually and try to parse, and writing code for each and every “ifc…” property | entity etc…
C# is ideally wanted language for us, but if unfortunately maybe it is not possible, but there is documentation, source-code for similar tool to export pipeline etc to ifc - then also please let us know.

Thank you all in advance. ifc is a good format - to be able to exchange data between different programs, different file types. but maybe because so many companies apply efforts to support it, - then it grows enormously - to add features of hundreds of companies - and make it all possible in IFC… this makes this format too huge, with so much duplicate (probably properties, fields, entities, - at least it seems like that), so it becomes a huge challenge to add ifc support to existing vector graphics program…

I made myself small tool to read ifc file - just cartesian points and loop poly lines - and i can see in Unity3d how 3d model is built only using this minimalistic information. maybe some micro-ifc format is to be introduced to have there only minimalistic information without any extra duplicate fields which just spoil experience of reading ifc file by human. it is very hard to debug ifc files, as their editors and even viewers are usually big programs which run slow.
so we need fast and reliable solution to this demand on ifc-export in our PipeLines etc editor.

Please answer questions above.

Thank you all in advance
Wish you all Merry Christmas and all the best in New Year 2023

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IFC models requires significant amount technical work.
Even format looks simple and clear to parse and write, it will require a lot of efforts when you start from scratch.
You should use existing SDK/Toolkits. It will save a lot of work and answer many questions.
There are wide range free and commercial solutions for many platforms
For C# you can look into C# IFC engine or xbim

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@IvanD you can find more info about IFC Development Tools in the following database:

They range from commercial to open-source solutions with variety of prices, terms, and support options.

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Igor.Sokolov, thank you for answer. Yes, it may look easier to read coordinates from .ifc file by own tool (I’m doing this to visualize coordinates - ifcCartesianPoint and ifcPolyLoop), but if I try to make own ifc file - that’s very hard.
So I downloaded from buildingSmart-repository from github a project to work with ifc files. it is fortunately also in C#. But it uses compiled DLL - GeometryGym, and inside it there are a lot of data which is hard to parse. Saving database to JSON generates too big file with duplicates. Much beter when I use project from oggicial GeometryGym hithub project to save to ifcXML - thus structure looks indeed simple and clear. But when I try saving in this way even simple 4 lines as rectangle -
problem is that it cannot open in important programs like Civil3d or BimVision. It shows blank. Though I use code which is given by GeometryGym - that’s library used by BuildingSmart itself. So this is quite sad. I mean to say that it means that many IFC-viewers/editors cannot open even examples from BuildingSmart (GeomtryGym)… On other hand, FreeCAD and Blender (with ifc plugin) do open IFC-files, which are the generated by GeometryGym/BuildingSmart library freely available from github.

I wonder that there is no programmer’s manual for this Open file format - IFC. On other sites, usually documentation goes with a lot of code for each and every function which is in file format. Say, for ifcCartesianPoint, for ifcPolyLoop etc there should be (I expect) many examples, downloadable from buildingSmart github. But I see only very few folders, and short files which generate quite very simple geometry… Worst part of this is that IFC files cannot open in all IFC-viewers. So thus it gives me doubt that Civil3d (AutoDesk) and BimVision are supporting IFC to 100%, and thus not IFC-certified. This is rather strange for AutoCad/AutoDesk. If this is such a big company to produce CAD software, why they do not make good IFC reader? It looks like their Revit also uses C# code for IFC (also in xBIM mentioned by jwouellette _ I’ll take a look at it - it is too much code and files, and also bugs - not immediately ready to compile - errors to be fixed etc)…

Which IFC viewer is most reliable, and 100% IFC files certified? Is there any such free viewer? I want to know in which IFC viewer I ideally should view my generated IFC files. Because I don’t even know if that’s my own mistakes that IFC files generated by GeometryGym are not opening in Civil3d / BimVision etc. If generated file is not viewable in some programs, but viewable in some others - this makes a feeling that maybe I’m doing something worng. but maybe it also is the problem with IFC-viewers which I use. I don’t know, and whom to ask?

I don’t find a good documentation for ifc Programming anywhere. Only some small parts of code somewhere availabe on internet. I can understand that maybe because format is open and thus in some sense free (as it is avialbale at buildingSmart@github and also at GeometryGym@github for free to download)… But this is very bad, that this very problem exists - so many companies in world have to make serious drawings in CAD software etc, and if they don’t echange data easily and fast - whole process becomes slower, and people are unhappy (and thus many economical problems for many CAD-related industries, also from lack of IFC programmer’s documentation)…

I was trying to analize structure of IFC file. It looks like it has just small header - ISO…, with some simple data in header (automatically filled by GeometryGym), and mosst important - in DATA section are code with “#id = IFC(…)” lines. Problem is that when I even tried to make a code for simple pipe, - I opened IFC file from Civil3d, it had maybe few hundred lines, so for each “IFC…()” line I tried to make new ifcEntity etc in Visual Studio, and it is a problem to find out how to generate those ifcEntities in code, what should I pass to them in brackets, in which order. What is optional and what is critically important as minimum to make it all work and load generated IFC without errors… Say, I tried to take GeometryGym.BuildingSmart example from github and add there a pipe with “ifc pipe segment” property (similarly to example from github - for Road segment) - and it was saved from database.writeFile(“out.ifc”) - but it was unable to be opened even inside Freecad which worked for other simpler ifc entities… So problem is lack of documentation, and I don’t have any desie to ïnvent a wheel" by guessing a lot of time and days how should I write this or that ifc function - by the use of experiments “maybe it will compile, I don’t know”… Without good examples - hard to do anything. If they are not provided from BuildingSmart@github - then where to look for them?

Alternative packages - xBim etc - I may try. I’ve faound probably 4 in the list of around 400 programs in the link given by jwouellette - and of course it will require time for me to try even to compile downloaded versions. Say, I had sometimes to reduce version of GeometryGym to older to make examples from github compile. Or should make them newer, For example to make IfcXML (which looks very nice - small but in hierarchy), - I had required to use Geometry Gym Core version, and not older .NET framework version (before GeometryGym Core).

I wonder where should I add elements in the heirarchical tree - where to add say even a line?
I want just for example to draw a simple line into IFC file, which will have as minimum extra fields as posible - maybe just coordinates - ifcCartesianPoint pt1, and ifcCartesianPoint pt2, and ifcPolyLoop loop1(pt1, pt2), and maybe color in which this line is draw… but even example from geometryGym offers to use larger code.

For example, in old good WinForms I click on panel two times with mouse, and want to save generated points into IFC file, and draw line between them. This even makes it a struggle to make it openable in all possible IFC-viewers. Why even very respected company like Civil3d/Autodesk cannot open generated example by GeometryGym/BuildingSmart (from Github)? I of course think maybe I did something wrong, but … if official example from BuildingSmart/GeoGym can’t open in respected companie’s CAD software (AutoCAD and so on) - then I don’t even know what to think.

Is that library - GeometryGym (offered by BuildingSmart on their Github for IFC) - best for IFC? Or it is just and example, which GeometryGym just provided because of their special friendship with BuildingSmart - to IFC developer…? Yes, I see that GeometryGym itself have commercial plugins/code. DLL is compiled to open and save IFC files. I just wonder, does it mean that to get documentation on how to use DLL from GeometryGym - should I buy something from GeomtryGym? I don’t even see provided documentation or option to buy such API/Programmers Interface docs in C# for IFC of GeoGym site…
About others - also I don’t know. Those several C# libraries avaialble in list of over 400 programs/tools (link of jwouellette) - is it similar problem there? I think I tried to use xBIM in Visual studio, compiled and runned some WInforms/WPF app (asp net version didn’t compile), and it could open IFC file to show as picture. But data is not avaialbe to be easily parsed etc (it is just like picture in raster format, not editable etc by code, I think)…

So this is thus hard to say that IFC is such a “free and open” file format… It is rather strange, or sad (maybe noone pays to BuildingSmart to develop free documentation for programmers of IFC?)

I am puzzled on what to do next. If I’ll use instead of GeoGym (offered by BuldingSmart on github) other libraries like in list of those over 400 tools - I think I have then even less support.

Maybe GeomtryGym is best if it is used as DLL in project of BuildingSmart @github? but if it is best, why generated IFC files are not openable by AutoCad software and other ifc-viewers? some others do open. I don’t know why some programs do open, others don’t. It looks likethose who open official examples from GeoGym - are better. Why BuildingSmart chose exactly GeoGym and say not xBim etc to place it on their BuildingSmart@Github?

I decided to start with GeoGym as it is on BuildingSmart@Github. But to make even simple rectangle requires code like this: (see ConsoleCreateSurfaceMember.cs in GeoGym at github)

but when compiled (library og GeoGym Core is last for today), - it can’t open in BimVision, Civul3d etc. FreeCad can open, Blender also can open. And this is strange. Is generated file is wrong or right? I don’t even know. Whom to ask? Who can answer with 100% confidence?

Why for drawing a rectangle, I need to have also these:
DatabaseIfc, IfcBuilding, IfcProject, IfcPlane? DatabaseIfc is strange thing which is not in IFC file standard, but it there in GeoGym. ifcBuilding is there and ifcProject, but to pass a db into constructor is somewhat strange (if that’s pointer like in C++ it is different). These duplicates of coordinates and axis rotations are somewhat boring unnecessary information. Other generated firelds like SI units - meters, radians etc - who really needs it?
I think ideally IFC file should have a list of coordinates of points, and which figurees are build using those points, with extra attributes for more complicated objects. But simple small project already seem to generate unclear ifc file structure/hyerarchy (if you see IfcContext.JSON - you’ll how big it is even for small geometry data)…
IfcContext if it is similar to ifcProject, why it is added?
I see the ifcSite information - why add it? It is just optional I think.
Then if all goes in hyerarchy in ifcBuilding - still not all drawing are about buildings… So, why then IFCBUILDINGELEMENTPROXY is used to make custom objects?

My conclusion for current day is that different companies are trying to solve their CAD drawing problems relating to IFC - by making own custom objects, own IFC file structure and maybe even own IFC libraries, and thus they are not compatible. I think IFC file format is too much comlicated with unnecessary strictlness, hierarchy and required fields which are making popular programs like those from AutoDesk even not being able to read IFC files.

I see, IFC format is in development… But if so, then still there must be some minimum core documentation, libraries and API for programmers, with exmples, ready for compilation etc - so that they don’t “invent wheels” by geissing what to do and how in IFC files…

So now I am in strange mood, wondering why IFC format is like “anarchy” - everyone does its support in its own way. But thus it leads to conclusion that this ideal which CAD-related companies want - is not achieved by BuildingSmart/IFC at present. No documentation, no examples, no support, no source code, no libraries. “If you sink - then you are the only one who can save yourself in the ocean”. Situation seems like this in “ocean” of IFC…

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Hi Ivan

First of all you have figure out if you need IFC at all: if your primary goal is to transfer geometry to other software maybe some other format is more handy (i.e dxf is widely used).
But if you need to transfer AEC (Architecture, Engineering, Construction) data then IFC is most probably the way to go. What makes IFC more complicated is the fact that there is project data, spatial stucture, object data and geometry (of objects) and grouping of objects (usually used in HVAC and electrical systems). That whole chain could be an overkill if your need is to carry geometry from software to an other.

Anyways, you could take a look to ODA (Open Desings Alliance) IFC SDK: IFC SDK | Open Design Alliance. That is a toolbox that sort of isolates how IFC must be written to file (all the references between objects, types, geometry…).
Please find attached a simple sample of just one pipe presented in IFC.

Here you can download a basic tool for viewing IFC file: KIT - IAI - Downloads
Download FZKViewer 6.5 (Build 2516). It shows raw content using IFC terminology so that you can see what for example that pipe sample contains. FZKViewer has speed issues with bigger files but it is very handy to check smaller ones.

As Igor wrote all this requires quite a lot of ground work at the beginning.
Hope this helps,
Marko

DrainagePipeSimpleSample
DrainagePipeSimpleSample1580×998 61 KB

DrainagePipeSimpleSample.ifc (5.9 KB)

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Maybe this is a good starting point for sewage with IFC in C#: IfcSharpApps/IfcSharp/hello_pipe at master · IfcSharp/IfcSharpApps (github.com)
Also here you find something about using IFC for pipelines/sewage: MA_Wiedemann_OPUS4_Server.pdf (kobv.de) (only in german)
Good luck!

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Hi,
I’m Jon, the developer of the Geometry Gym toolkit.
IFC is a comprehensive and complex data model, and it requires time to learn it.
As an example, creating an IFC with only points or curves isn’t really valid as the geometry needs to “represent” a product, which needs to be contained in a project context and spatial structure. Different model view definitions may refine requirements such as this. The geometry gym toolkit will not validate that you have met requirements such as this, or prevent you from saving files.

To have the greatest success, start with IFC2x3 coordination view and validate the files you create. I personally found Ifc Checking Tool from TUM a great choice, but others are now availalble. KIT - IAI - Downloads If this checking tool reports no errors, you should expect viewers and other software that support your MVD of choice to work.
A lot of my work (and some of the examples I created) were testing advanced use cases, and features of IFC that are not necessarily supported by viewers. I understood that buildingSMART were going to remove the repo with the examples I posted there, and I haven’t maintained it for some time.

Certainly it is recognized that developers new to IFC could benefit from more documentation, better examples etc. Resources for these tasks is a challenge (particularly if relying on volunteer effort).

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Hi, Jon, nice to meet you here. I’ve chosen GeoGym as first ifc-library to start with, as it is on building-smart - on their github. I was happy at first that you provided an example to save some basin element, and it opened in Autodesk Civil3d. Other examples failed to open in Civil3d. So I tried to change geometry in example provided, to save own rectangles/polyloops etc, of course it worked, but I want some more general element like ifcBuildingElementProxy, which can be used for any custom/user geometry and with minimum restrictions. Unfortunately I didn’t have success in trying to giess how to make ifcBuildingElementProxy inside GeoGym. At least, it was not openable in Civil3d and other ifc-software. Problem with GeoGym is that it looks complicated. First of all, some classes are called differently from the names used on buildingSmart site for entities. In this sense, I found Xbim better, and yes they even provide some source-code. i’m not sure about license of GeoGym, on your site there are some commercial plugins, we don’t need them. We may need some minimum features to save geometry into ifcBuildingElementProxies, with some custom properties - for mentioned pipes, manholes, roads etc. We don’t need a big huge list of so many things available in ifc file starndard, and probably yes, ifc certification is now not an option for us.
I’m not sure, Jon, about your relationships with BuildingSmart. If you provided your GeoGym lib on github of developers of BuildingSmart, than it means you have some very close relationships with them. At least, you are not just in the list of those over 400 ifc-tools (you know that list on BuildingSmart site). But my first good impression disappeared soon. I was happy to open IFC files in your GeoGym DLL project, and save to ifc-json and ifc-XML from them - to see internal tree/hierarchy of objects. But to save to ifc is a problem for us. I tried to guess hot to make a code to write to IFC, using examples you provided on github of BuildingSmart, but was unsuccessful to guess how to make most common element - ifcBuildingElementProxy. I then completely lowered my hands and considered GeoGym is either not free so they don’t provide documentation for case like ours (but then what’s whole idea of IFC as open standart for everyone to exchange data? I have no answer to it, maybe governments or big companies should fund IFC projects like yours - GeoGym and so on, especially if it’s on github of BuildingSmart)… So I guess BuildingSmart is also non-commercial organization, and what they do - is just volunteering? And for this reason there is no documentation for programmers on their site - only some general description for ifc entitie, parameters, but no code examples etc…

Jon, please, if you can at least provide some code or help to create ifcBuildingElementProxy, i’ld be greatly thankful (if I was some priest, I’ld have even blessed you). But I’m not sure about your words that you say that BuildingSmart wanted even to remove your code from their github. Why? Why they chosen your library - GeoGym, and wanted to remove it? Because you didn’t developed that project into some more advanced? And so nobody payed from BuildingSmart to you to make it done or what (so you say that you just volunteered to make it). I mean this is good, i am also a volunteer in some sense. But. It looks like many even governmantal organizations are forcing to use IFC format, so it is strange that this development of IFC is not funded, and hat it remains volunteering (as I understood).

Anyway, I tried to use Xbim library, and had some success in saving to FZK-Viewer, but with many errors/warnings. I like that xbim don’t have complicated constructors of classes. I can create empty entities and then add properties to them when I need. In GeoGym I was unable to do it. I even tried to write own IFC text to ifc file, guessing minimum required data to be openable inside Civil3d. It worked, but also with numerous errors/warnings. Say if there are 5 ifcBuildingElementProxies, my produced files from either xbim, or my own efforts writing from zero (I ommit some properties, some entities, just try save geometry, like remove representation (sub)context etc). So I am kind of stuck. I can try use empirical approach of errors/mistakes, and reopening file again and again trying to see if my changes will prduce say from GeoGym openable file inside Civil3d / FZKviewer, or maybe some BimVision ifc-viewer, or any other like FreeCad etc.
But having no IFC documentation for programmer (and no ifc examples of code), I feel unhappy and unsure what to do next. if some approach works for one ifc-program, I mean it opens i, then other may not open. So some programs ignore some warnings/erros, but for other ifc-sofware it can be opposite, critical, and they stop loading ifc file at all.

Jon, do you provide some payed IFC documentation, for programmers, so that we know how to create some ifc objects using GeoGym DLL? We don’t require so many ifc entitis, and those sold on your website (plugins for Revit etc). We just want to write own program to convert from our program to IFC. And we need only entities like ifcManholes, ifcPipes, ifcRoads, ifcBuildingElementProxy etc. Do you provide payed support for developers? Can you just sell some documentation, or give it for free, at least for mentioned several ifc entities? We require it to be openable inside Civil3d and some viewers like BimVision. Can GeoGym produce such files, or you are not sure yourself? Does BuildingSmart have some “politics” which is like yours (GeoGym) - that IFC library is not free - I mean documentation on how to use your DLL, how to generate some project with IFC entities etc…? Because to me now it looks that you are yourself a main programmer inside BuildingSmart, who is developing IFC DLL. I think so because you are on GitHub of BuildingSmart. Probably I’m wrong, but then pleae clarify what is your real relationship with BuildingSmart, what is idea of IFC is free, and why no documentation is there for programing IFC in C#, though your project is there on GitHub of BuildingSmart…

My basic file which I generate using simple “WriteLine” to file in C#, has just around 20 ifc entities - like ifc project, ifc building element proxy, ifc rel aggregate, ifc shape definion, ifc location of proxy, ifc closed shell, ifc face, ifc polylop, and ifc face etc. So I simply add manually point’s coordinates, and then add them to polyloops, ifcfaces, etc, and finally to building proxy. In GeoGym it is complicaed to see opened IFC file in debug mode, all the tree. I could read it (saved in ifc-xml is good to know structure), but to produce ifc file from scratch using GeoGym for me came out to be “mission impossible”. Problem is some elements are protected or maybe private, hidden (not public) or maybe they are read-only - no setter, only getter etc. And when I try to guess how to constructor classes for your, Jon, GeoGym ifcEntities - then it requires a lot of other parameters in brackets, and I’m unable to guess how to use documentation for these ifc entities - how to use documentation from BuildingSmart site - to write code for your classes to make errors go away, and to construct entities… So, do you provide some other commercial DLL which have those setters (so not read-only anymore), and those memebers/fileds/variables are no more private but public, so can be set from outside (not at time of constructing instances of your GeoGym ifc entities/classes)…? If you need money and it is for sale - plese tell how much is it. But we are not happy with the scheme that you have on your GeoGym website - that every year one has to pay much, hundreds of dollars for one user. Suppose, if I am the only programer in for our CAD program (and indeed I am), so do you have a license for one programmer - support - so we pay for documentation, support to write code, so we can produce IFC, make those ifc pipes, ifc manholes, ifc roads and be them openable in programs mentioned which users of our program also use… Do you have some package, which you can sell - with all documentation for your GeoGym DLL, how to use it in C#, without paying every year again and again? I already said, we don’t need eacah and every class to be supported, but only part (most probably small part fof all what’s in IFC). If it’s a question of money, maybe we are able to pay, but it depends how much is it, and what are conditions. Do you also ask for money if we ask questions like this, and ask for source code, some documentation / assistance / aid to implement IFC support…? I am asking it, because I compare with Unity3d game engine, in which I have experience - and the developer of this Game/Pgysics (and also geometry) engine - provides documentation on how to code something in C# - how to make some basic programs/games in it, they have lessons, manuals. But I don’t see something similar for IFC/BuildingSmart. Maybe it is in closed area on BuildingSmart site, for those who pay for membership etc? Maybe we also can pay (does it mean IFC certification also?), but also it depends how much is this. It looks like BuildingSmart didn’t evendecided which main programming langauges they want to use to develop IFC. They should chose one programming language for IFC. It looks like they already selecetd C# - and your library -GeometryGym, Jon. So you are maybe lucky, or very serious responsible person, so you happened to be on the github of BuildingSmart. Problem is there is there is indeed no documentation. And if I face maybe hundreds of errors in ifc checker/validator, so that’s why file is no openable in most programs (but maybe opens only in one), then it’s unclear what is algoruthm of my actions to remove those errors and achieve result. It looks like ïnventing wheel"to me - guessing how to do this and that - either with GeoGym, Xbim, or any other ifc library, or trying writing own. of course IFC file inside is just text, so of course I tried to read file myself, and to write. have multiple errors and warnings. It can be ok it GeoGym will at least produce a file with errors/warning, but will be openable in Civil3d/BimVision/FZKViewer and maybe some other common programs. But have no idea how to achieve it. I have to choose which IFC library to use, and having to documentation (also no documention for Xbim, though they are quite good for viewing IFC files in WPF). It looks like he world of IFC is commercialized, not free, and to achieve something of more or less good/fine quality - requires to buy something. Maybe from you, Jon. But what is your pricelist? Aside from those plug-ins mentioned on your site… So I guess you are making IFC module, which other programmers can also use, right? It means you are not going to work on our CAD program directly, but will have just to buy some “IFC-programmer starting-package” from you, so we can achieve what we (and/or our program’s users) want/need.

Why IFC requires “project Context”? I removed that line from ifc file, and it opened in Civil3d without Context or Subcontext. I removed any mentioning of ifcProdcut in ifc file, it is openable in Civil3d. I try to use ifc v4, not sure why you suggest using older version ifc v2.3? What do you mean, Jon, that ou made some advanced features testing for IFC? is this something which BuildingSmart may later add if they want? It looks like GeoGym s not same as BuildingSmart, then I don’t understand what do you test in those GeoGym repository on GitHub.
And by the way, Jon, volunteers are not necessarily doing everything for free. There are voluntees who get money, earn money from volunteering. And you don’t look like volunteer who do it 100% for free, as on your website there is a pricelist with good big prices, so I suspect problem is either you don’t have time, or BuildingSmart not paying for this. Because yes, I guesss if you provide documentation for free - then who will pay you? in modern world, it is different - if somthing is open-source - it can be still payed /funded by some organization (usually big, like government or internation corporations), but then it becomes for free - to others. just like see Linux world. There are many volunteers. But they still earn money,. Yes, they write even open-source code, but get payed. So you already disclosed some source code, Jon, of GeoGym - on BuildingSmart github. Then it is strange if BuildingSmart want to remove it from their repository. If you decide to change your license from free / open-source (like now on github of BuildingSmart), to closed-source code, then you should decide. I’ve read on some website, people say that BuildingSmart don’t produce really free/open IFC format, as developers face problem like we face - no documentation, no support, so they either have multiple errors in ifc files, and not all programs open it. and we indeed see that most iFC viewers/tools/editors are very differently handling same ifc files, or different ifc entities etc. it is like a chaos, it looks like this. on other hand, if some governments etc force to use IFC - this is strange, they should fund BuildingSmart, IFC etc, and maybe GeoGym. Say, I didnt myself received on programming almost nothing in my life (honestly), I am indeed kind of volunteer. Faceing something like this disappoints me - IFC has no documentation for programmers, and looks like everything of good quality is not free in IFC world.

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Ouch! I feel this guy’s pain.

Ivan, If you are still around - how did you get on?

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Seriously, the documentation for xbim has helped me quite a bit.

I learned a little bit of simple model creation techniques from the two links above, which allowed me to work on the harder stuff.

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I had a look at those links but seems to be .NET based and I mostly use Linux for server-side processing.

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If you want meaningful answers, it is more effective to post singular questions in a forum. If each reply is 3 pages of thoughts, questions, ideas, people honestly give up on trying to answer here.

From my experience, getting started with IFC from a development perspective is quite complex, as you have to pick one of the (countless) IFC-toolkits, which are not all equal. I’ve dabbled with XBIM, GeometryGym, Ifcopenshell and Ifcengine. They all require you to have a very good understanding of the IFC scheme.

My old attempts to add IFC import capabilities into Unity learned me that the code to read IFC from XBIM and GeometryGym is very, very similar. With Ifcengine, this uses “SDAI” which seems to be a standardised interface for working with STEP datasets. But in general, you write mostly the same code and logic.

After these experiments, I used Python and Ifcopenshell, as it is a little easier to get into and it runs on every platform (I’m using macOS).